Further on the Enneagram
This is in reponse to Kirby’s comments on this posting.
Kirby, hi and thanks for writing. When you say you’ve been typed by experts, what does that mean? Have you met with enneagram teachers or taken classes? Just curious.
You’re right, the books really contradict each other. And so do many teachers. That’s one reason why, when it comes to enneagram typing, your hunches are most important. Second most important is to locate a teacher you really trust and read his or her work thoroughly. The two I value the very, very most are Helen Palmer and Eli Jaxon-Bear. Their books are my favorites and I’ve re-read both many times. However, what I got the most value from were Helen’s audio book and Eli’s audio book. I’ve had both audio sets in my car for probably 5 years and I listen to them over and over, randomly. Or when I’m about to meet with someone I feel nervous about, I listen to the tape about them when I feel confident I know their type.
I agree with you that thinking of your young self is very important when trying to type yourself. This is when your responses and aspirations were less processed. Soif young Kirby seemed more fourish, I’d count that as another vote for 4.
I can’t really say that any particular test typed me more accurately than another. It was more of a cumulative thing. And then I made friends with someone who knows the enneagram very, very well and he helped me type myself with confidence. So, again, it’s really a combination of factors: reading, taking tests, and trying to talk with people who know the enneagram. Once you know it, it’s not so hard to tell who is who. Although it’s very important to always, always, always leave room for doubt. No one wants to be ghetto-ized as a number and it can be harmful to do that to others or to yourself. So keep doubting.
If you can find your subtype (or instinctual variant), that can be helpful in defining type.
Enneagram numbers are like flavors of ice cream. You can’t quite explain what strawberry tastes like, but you know it when you taste it. It’s similar with the types–often, I don’t know exactly why, but I’ll feel certain that this one is an 8 and that one is a 2. It just feels a certain way to be around them.
10 comments
Thanks, Susan and Kirby. I *finally* feel comfortable typing myself, based on the two tests on the Dutch drummer guy’s website that Kirby recommended, plus all the others that Susan had listed earlier.
I am “most likely a type 9 (the Peacemaker) with balanced wings,
Sexual variant”. Yeah! I feel close to “8. The Challenger” and “1. The Reformer”, and that’s what balanced wings means, right? Sexual = prefers one-on-one contacts. Sounds like me.
I had previously come up with “2. The Helper” on some tests, but the suggestion to go back to our personality *before* we began to work on changing (improving) ourselves… that helped me to get to my original nature.
Now I am nervous that this information will change the way Susan and others relate to me. Does that nervousness indicate that I am secretly a Loyalist (worry) or Achiever (fear of being unpopular)?!
Thanks, this has been a fun discussion. Best wishes, Bob
Hi, Susan, thanks for this valuable response. You asked me exactly who were the experts and how they typed me.
I’ll give you a short history, but I’m not sure if I should name names. Well, I will, but I won’t tell all!
I first got on to the enneagram when I was living in Finland. I found a book about the system at a giant bookstore in Helsinki called Akateeminen (Academic) bookstore, connected to Helsinki University. My wife (a Finn) was working at Nokia Telecommunications Company and we were in Helsinki for one of her meetings and I had the day to browse. I came across the system in the bookstore and immediately turned to the eight, and read it, and thought, wham, that’s my boss. (I was working at an English department in Finland.)
It was like having an X-ray.
I then went through the rest and thought I was a seven. I told my wife and read the description, and she said, you’re definitely not a seven. You’re way too … I think she said depressive.
I ordered ALL the books: Riso, Hurley & Dobson, Palmer (as well as the tape you mention), and maybe a dozen others (Rohr, Thompson, Bast, to name only a few). I must have forty enneagram books. I did research on the net, and read all the sites, and took all the tests. It was a very helpful thing to be able to see others like you were looking at an X-ray.
But I was never able to see myself very clearly. I thought: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 9. I always knew I was not a 2 or an 8. I don’t like to help other people, and I don’t like to dominate other people.
When I got back to the states I called Mary Bast. She had a free phone deal where you could talk to her for an hour for free. I must have been one of the first to call, because she let me talk to her for a long while. She was likable, and we talked for about six months. She thought I was a four, or maybe a nine. Finally, she didn’t know, I think. I think she too got lost in the trees and couldn’t see the forest after a while.
We ended up just chatting about daily events in our lives, and then she got busy with several big contracts, and that was that. Mary’s a nine.
I next contacted Elizabeth Wagele, who has become a friend. This was about four years of emails, mostly funny, but also kind of personal. Lots of hilarity. Liz is a five.
She wasn’t going to answer, but I think she thinks I’m a five or a six. What’s interesting though is that it seems to me that we tend to see other people as perhaps more like us, and so perhaps, more likely to be our own number. Do you think this is true?
The editor of the Enneagram Monthly (I’ve written some articles for them) has let me rattle on about how hard it is to find my type in the pages of that esteemed journal. Several experts there have weighed in on my case, and some of them have called me, to try to figure out my number. I can’t remember all their names! I think I am a little like a pistachio nut that won’t open, so it arouses the interest of the experts, perhaps.
Sterling Doughty who studied with Ichazo himself, thought at first I was a four, but then he thought maybe I am a five after we exchanged a few dozen emails. He’s a retired airline pilot who lives in Switzerland.
Clarence Thompson said for certain I am a four (he’s been the only one who was absolutely absolutely certain, and said he would place his whole professional identity on it). I emailed him after testing out his website (Enneagram Central), and we exchanged a few hundred emails.
Jack Labanauskas (editor of Enneagram Monthly) thinks I might be a seven.
I think I have to be either a four or a five, and Clarence Thompsen convinced me that the five is an accretion due to years of graduate study, and teaching philosophy.
I really held out for about a year. And it’s been several years since I was in touch with Clarence. But my hunch is that he’s right.
For one thing: I was never interested in science or math but always thought they were ridiculous. Did you think that, too?
I always LOVED the arts, and still do. Now I can listen to a scientific theory, but I have no idea why anyone cares or why people spend their lives among test tubes, in white coats.
At any rate, I’m either a five with a four wing, or a four with a five wing. The subtype is also difficult to determine. If I’m a five, then I’m a sexual five. Because I can talk to people easily and develop real rapport with just about anyone in a matter of seconds.
I don’t think an SP Five or even a Social Five could do that.
I might be a Social Four with a Five wing. That’s my closest guess, if I’m a four. The subtypes have not been described very well, and again, all the different writers have subtle criteria shifts, and then of course, people are constantly trying to come up with a new twist, so that they can feel original, and get some of the moolah, I suppose, or at least some of the fame.
That’s fine, but it muddies the system.
I teach the book The Literary Enneagram by Judith Searle to beginning literature students. They mostly get their types by the end of the semester, and so this is forming a pool of people whose types I can actually see. I’ve never been to a conference or met a real enneagram expert. It’s expensive to do that, and I’m just a teacher at a state college with four small kids. So I can’t get about to conferences.
But many of the students think I’m a four. I have them guess at the end of the class in a secret vote kind of thing, and they vote that I’m a four. This sort of confirms four, for me.
At any rate, thanks for getting back to me, and best wishes.
Oh, another thing. I wrote a novel just before I got on to the enneagram thing. It’s called Temping. In it, a lonely temp in Seattle dreams of having an artistic, spontaneous life. It sounds very much like what the fours generally end up doing: having a lowly ordinary life, but dreaming of something more special and wonderful. In the novel, the lead character slaughters a peacock. I think he did this out of envy for the fact that the peacock was special, and he was not.
The book got published in Seattle by a small press called Black Heron Press, and has gotten a lot of good reviews — there are at least a half dozen that you can google for (and one lousy one from Kirkus Reviews, which hurt my feelings).
At any rate, this was a relatively long answer to a relatively short question.
But I could have gone on for days until you were dazed.
Why don’t you tell us the process by which you figured out you were a four?
Robert–it’s great that you feel like you know your type. And don’t worry, it won’t change the way anyone relates to you, esp me!
Keep reading about 9, anything and everything you can.
And it’s funny that at the end of your post you wonder “am I really a 6? a 3?”3, 6, and 9 have a special relationship to each other. When you learn about the lines of integration and distintegration, you’ll see that when 9 feels good, he integrates at the high side of 3. When under stress, he disintegrates at the low side of 6.
Kirby, this is an amazing post!! It’s so so cool that you’ve met all these teachers and gotten their help with typing. And become friends with some. This is wonderful.
It may be true that we tend to see people as more like us. I seem to know a lot of 4s… I’ve asked myself the same question you ask, and I just don’t know the answer.
It’s interesting that you’ve met someone who studied with Ichazo. I believe I’ve read some posts from Sterling on various enneagram boards over the years.
You emailed with Clarence a few hundred times?! That’s amazing.
I think you can be a 5 but have no interest in science just as I think you can love art and not be a 4. It’s deeper than that. Nonetheless, it sounds like you’re settling for the meantime at 4 w 5 wing or 5 w 4 wing for now.
I appreciate you looking to the subtypes for support in typing yourself. I think that’s very important. I once bought audio of a talk given by Claudio Naranjo on subtypes. It was the best thing ever on subtypes. Here is the link: http://www.conferencerecording.com/aaaListTapes.asp?CID=IEA24
I really like Judith Searle’s book. Do you know of any site that types new movies/books? Tom Condon used to, but seems not to anymore.
I sort of can’t remember what exactly made me convinced I was a 4. I think it was listening to a Helen Palmer tape of a 4 panel.
Will check out your book!
Susan, yes, thanks so much for the feedback. No, I know of no site where anyone is typing movies. Sometimes Enneagram Monthly has someone who types a book or a movie, but I don’t know of anyone doing it regularly. Condon’s stuff is excellent.
Thanks for the link on Naranjo.
Also, Condon has new footage up — if you put his name into Google, and then put in enneagram, you get 4 and 5 minute chunks of 9 enneagram types, and other stuff.
The four he has in there is a LOT more like than the five. But of course there are subtle variations.
Condon says in the movie guide that the character James Spader in sex, lies, and videotape is an enneagram five. I can see myself a little like that character, too.
And then there’s the MBTI. I’m kind of between INTP and INFP there, too.
Can’t decide.
Like you say, it’s fun to doubt! And maybe it’s important to doubt the whole system!
Best,
Kirby
Will check out Condon’s site–thanks for the tip.
Hi, i hope you don’t mind me dropping you a line. I was reading this enneagram chat with interest and just wanted to give insight into my own search.
I too had trouble identifying my type. At different stages i thought i was a 7, an 8, a 4 or a 2. I now know i am a 6 – social subtype. Apparently this (along with 9) can be the hardest one for the individual to identify with.
I too wrote to Clarence Thompson and did a questionnaire that he provided. He came back saying he was absolutely definitely sure I was a 4. He was wrong.
At the time he typed me as a 4 i was happy with that decision and for awhile i ‘wore’ the enneagram 4 to see how it felt. Over time i realised i wasn’t a 4. I just didn’t identify with the core issues of envy and being ’special’ etc.
What did concern me with Clarence’s typing was he took things i had wrote and said that only a ‘4′ could have written that as i displayed a preference for artistic and aesthetic orientations. I think there is a big misconception about creativity and how this shows up for other types. I am MBti ‘NF’ which leads me to have some similiarities to the pursuits of the 4 – but i am not a 4. But i am creative and i have a very rich inner life. We need to remember that any type can display this in their personality.
I didn’t want to be a 6, i didn’t like the negative traits of the 6 particularly and i found a lot of the 6 descriptions are written with the SP6 in mind, and therefore some of it i couldn’t relate to.
However, i too think Helen palmer and Jaxon Bear are great enneagramists and they write very clearly on the 6 as doees Katherine from enneagram.net. Their observations assisted me in being able to identify my type clearly.
After finally accepting that i am a 6 i have learnt to embrace my blind spots and now, i cannot see how i ever doubted it…i am such a 6 now i see my own behaviours so clearly – and yes doubting is part of the process for a 6!
Riso and hudson say a 6 kind of ‘backs into’ their type. They don’t embrace it immediately and i do find there are a lot of creative 6s who identify strongly with the 4. I totally respect those who feel they are a 4 – i am not commenting to them. BUt to those who are still questioning maybe my journey can help you with your own process.
And lastly, My experience with Clarence highlighted my need to trust my own intuition in the light of an ‘authority’ telling me he was absolutely certain he knew my type. I respect Clarence and what he was trying to do but i think it does say something for allowing people to find their own type or for suggesting possibilities. This trust in my own ability to determine my type is fundamental to a 6 and to a social sub-type…so overall its been a very empowering journey.
Tara
PS: Helen Palmer also writes on her website the importance of taking time to find and to accept your type. She is very skeptical (as any good 6 would be) of the many tests that are on the internet for the enneagram and provides a list of tests she feels are fairly accurate and have researched their results in a scientific arena. Once again this highlights the need to be aware that one test cannot give you all the answers to what is basically a very intricate, complex world of the personality.
I also exchanged conversations with Katherine and provided her a collage of how i perceived my type and she was amazing in coming back to me with what those images represented in terms of my sub-type. This made me realise that sometimes images can portray so much more than words. i.e the images i selected showed my concern about belonging, not belonging, be outcast being included whereby I thought i was probably more the sexual type…however, my subconscious focus turned up in the pictures i selected…unknowingly to me as my focus was on portraying my E-type, not my sub-type. So it was a real eye opener to see how my unconscious leant toward certain imagery. I then went through my journal and it blew me away how this was actually a theme in my writing but that i was blind to its meaning.
I think once you really get to these levels within the enneagram you are just constantly amazed at how accurate it can be.
Interestingly, I also embraced my type at a time in my life when i really ‘found’ myself and grew in my sense of self. No coincidence that my type then just seemed to stick out like a sore thumb. I truly found myself at all levels…
Still not sure of my enneatype. Interesting to see the notes by Tara and Dorkas, especially Tara’s about how clarence had mistyped her.
He kept saying only a four could write such quick metaphors. But I have been writing for three decades, and I don’t see how it’s difficult to write a quick and apt metaphor.
At any rate, I’m still on the fence. I too have considered six.
I have a lot of worst case scenario thinking.
I tried a videotape by Eli. It was very spacey. He was giggling to himself a lot. I couldn’t take it, to be honest.
I don’t really trust anybody in the enneagram world, or any of their grounding foundational ideas. I came to the system via Riso — he kind of got the imprint, primarily because he was first.
At the same time, I listen to everybody.
Clarence may yet be right for me. I do notice that when I assume that I am a four, some things fall into place.
But not all.
I’m sure of the P in the INXP thing on the MBTI, and one enneagram author (Jerry Wagner) told me that that P might mean coming your mind open forever and never deciding.
Whatever.
by the way, in Naranjo’s book Transformations there is an amazingly crazy actress listed under type 6. I loved her style of thinking. Naranjo says she is a counterphobic sexual 6. She has her own language for everything, and is a crazy poet. She reminded me so much of my favorite poet Gregory Corso.
I am nowhere near that crazy.
But I just wanted to say that now over at MBTI central, someone over there is arguing that Naranjo’s six is actually a four, and his four is actually a six.
Confusions everywhere.
Sort of ridiculous.
At any rate, it seems easier to see everybody else’s number.
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